Organizational Behavior OB

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

Richard,

Look at Northcentral University www.ncu.edu . 

Over the past three years they have made some large scale changes in increasing rigor.

Rodger Adair, Project Director

Continuous Quality Improvement

University of Phoenix / Central Administration

Office of Institutional Assessment / 4605 E. Elwood St. / MS AA-T710 / Phoenix, AZ 85040

Phone: (602) 557-7035 / fax: 602-383-9368 / email: rodger.adair@apollogrp.edu

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

Richard,

That depends on whether you career plans include working at a research-oriented institution. It's difficult to imagine an online Ph.D. program that would be reasonably effective in preparing its students to pursue research-oriented careers. In a traditional residential Ph.D. program, students probably learn more outside of their formal coursework (i.e., from close interactions with faculty and fellow students) than within. In my view, such experiences are almost impossible to duplicate in an online curriculum.

As you say, online programs are certainly gaining traction (i.e., students) in their undergraduate and graduate level offerings. However, I know of no research-oriented institutions that actively recruit graduates of online Ph.D. programs.

Bruce

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the <st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

Hello everyone,

Capella University offers a rigorous online doctoral program with varied options in the School of Business and Technology or the School of Public Service Leadership, depending on what kind of organization interests you. I respectfully disagree with Dr. Meglino. As a doctoral faculty member and mentor in the School of Business and Technology  I have very close relationships and ongoing close interactions with learners. Learners who have me as a mentor or committee member would tell you that their research designs, data collection and analysis are subjects of ongoing conversation and undergo careful scrutiny. Our research oversight, through IRB and approval processes, are anything but a slam dunk.

At Capella, doctoral residencies and Dissertation Writers' Retreats offer face-to-face opportunities. I also use online meeting and shared document  tools and phone conversations to communicate with my doctoral mentees who are working on dissertations. I convene online meetings with groups of mentees who discuss their research and share ideas. These learners may miss some informal interactions common in an on-ground program but they gain something else-extraordinary skills in online communication and collaboration, and 21^st century academic skills. They are prepared to research, work and/or teach in a global, digitally-connected world. Since our learners are adults they can draw on both practical and academic knowledge as scholar-practitioners. Having spent a chunk of my own academic life in an Ivy League setting, I think this mix abilities in critical and applied thinking is quite valuable. Given the complex and challenging problems of our time we need thoughtful researchers who can help us understand and solve them.

I would point out that the world of scholarship is changing. Just as e-learning has changed the way education happens even in traditional institutions e-research will change the way we think about scholarship. The ways people conduct research are changing and I'd argue that new ways to cultivate researchers are also needed.  Online programs offer new ways to think about the formation of scholars. I'm interested in exploring new ways to support and guide the learners who work with me on dissertations. (I've recently written a book called Online Interviews in Real Time, and am in progress on a book called Cases in Online Interview Research, both from Sage.)

I encourage Mr. Cruz to think about career plans and look at all of the options, including those offered online. Certainly in on-ground institutions some are more research-oriented than others-and the focus and programs will appeal to some learners and not others. I think it is beneficial to have more diverse options accessible to a wider range of potential scholars.

All the best,

Janet Salmons, PhD

Janet Salmons Ph.D.
Core Faculty, Capella University School of Business and Technology &

Founder/Principal Consultant, Vision2Lead, Inc.
Site- http://www.vision2lead.com

Now available!  Online Interviews in Real Time

Read: Uncommon Places for Research

Join the Qualitative E-Research Group and companion group in Second Life

Follow Twitter at /einterview
PO Box 943
Boulder, CO 80306-0943
303-443-3075

I have to agree with David's point below. If you want a PhD for a tenure-track, research-based career, an online PhD a bad idea. I have a friend who'd always wanted a PhD, didn't really want to get out of her corporate HR leadership role, but just wanted the piece of paper. It's fine for her; it gave her what she wanted. However, it won't help her career one iota, and it won't help her get a good academic job.

She also asked me to participate in her dissertation, and I couldn't agree more with David on this. Her research skills were nonexistent, and I've seen sharp undergraduate students do the same level or better work in a class project. So perhaps an online program can give you the basic knowledge of the topic (e.g. organizational behavior), but it won't help you develop research skills, which are critical to a traditional academic degree.

It's also much more engaging and rewarding to be involved with other students and smart, capable faculty than being online – that's how your ideas and skills get tested and developed. If at all possible, my recommendation to anyone considering an online PhD would be to try to re-engineer things in your life to go for a more traditional approach to your education. It's a much better use of your time and money.

Good luck!  

Hello Janet and all,

I don't know if you remember me but I was one of the first students in the Dissertation Writers Retreat! I am a graduate of Capella University in the School of Business and Technology with a PhD in Organizational Management.

From my personal experience, I can honestly say that I have had an uphill battle with being able to teach with my PhD. Currently, I am teaching at a university where we have an extreme heavy teaching load including the summer (3 * 15 week semesters per year). I do teach in both a graduate and undergraduate program.  I was able to start working for this program back when I was still working on my PhD and in an adjunct status; I was happy to work with the organization as they are all about technology and the next coolest thing in advancing innovation and education. The problem is that with a heavy workload it is hard to have the opportunity to try and put together anything for a research study.

Lately, I have really been evaluating where I want to go and what I want to do with my career. I have figured out that I would like to teach a "normal" teaching load and do some research. By no means do I want to do live for my research as I do enjoy the classroom experience but I would like the time to publish articles and do some of the other "academic" activities.  I have not had good reception from many academics because I have an "online degree". I had a colleague of mine talk down about "people with online educations" with me sitting right there! I want to be one of those scholars that will help change this attitude about online education.

I don't regret my decision to obtain my degree online as I absolutely believe that I received great instruction and connections. I do feel I missed out on an experiential learning process that is necessary for this degree. I would have loved to teach/mentor students during my degree; to get that experience and work with some great researcher on their current study.

I think that the best thing that you can do is make the decision of what you want out of your PhD program. Best of luck in making your decision.

Holly Rick

Hello everyone,

Capella University offers a rigorous online doctoral program with varied options in the School of Business and Technology or the School of Public Service Leadership, depending on what kind of organization interests you. I respectfully disagree with Dr. Meglino. As a doctoral faculty member and mentor in the School of Business and Technology  I have very close relationships and ongoing close interactions with learners. Learners who have me as a mentor or committee member would tell you that their research designs, data collection and analysis are subjects of ongoing conversation and undergo careful scrutiny. Our research oversight, through IRB and approval processes, are anything but a slam dunk.

At Capella, doctoral residencies and Dissertation Writers' Retreats offer face-to-face opportunities. I also use online meeting and shared document  tools and phone conversations to communicate with my doctoral mentees who are working on dissertations. I convene online meetings with groups of mentees who discuss their research and share ideas. These learners may miss some informal interactions common in an on-ground program but they gain something else-extraordinary skills in online communication and collaboration, and 21^st century academic skills. They are prepared to research, work and/or teach in a global, digitally-connected world. Since our learners are adults they can draw on both practical and academic knowledge as scholar-practitioners. Having spent a chunk of my own academic life in an Ivy League setting, I think this mix abilities in critical and applied thinking is quite valuable. Given the complex and challenging problems of our time we need thoughtful researchers who can help us understand and solve them.

I would point out that the world of scholarship is changing. Just as e-learning has changed the way education happens even in traditional institutions e-research will change the way we think about scholarship. The ways people conduct research are changing and I'd argue that new ways to cultivate researchers are also needed.  Online programs offer new ways to think about the formation of scholars. I'm interested in exploring new ways to support and guide the learners who work with me on dissertations. (I've recently written a book called Online Interviews in Real Time, and am in progress on a book called Cases in Online Interview Research, both from Sage.)

I encourage Mr. Cruz to think about career plans and look at all of the options, including those offered online. Certainly in on-ground institutions some are more research-oriented than others-and the focus and programs will appeal to some learners and not others. I think it is beneficial to have more diverse options accessible to a wider range of potential scholars.

All the best,

Janet Salmons, PhD

Janet Salmons Ph.D.
Core Faculty, Capella University School of Business and Technology &

Founder/Principal Consultant, Vision2Lead, Inc.
Site- http://www.vision2lead.com

Now available!  Online Interviews in Real Time

Read: Uncommon Places for Research

Join the Qualitative E-Research Group and companion group in Second Life

Follow Twitter at /einterview
PO Box 943
Boulder, CO 80306-0943
303-443-3075

Hi, Richard,

You asked in your original post whether some programs stand out above the rest. Certainly research should be done to determine this based on outcomes, as one comment suggests.  The implication there was that the desired outcome of a PhD is placement as an academic (e.g., tenure professor) or researcher. This "endpoint" may be shifting as our culture and work-life become increasingly knowledge intense, as we live longer and seek development in adult life, as life is discussed in terms of trajectories and turning points rather than as a steady climb toward a clear-cut goal, and as the deep knowing that comes from doctoral level studies becomes desirable as a state of being rather than as a career enhancer.

All that said, many post-docs do want an academic/research position and from the anecdotal information I've gathered this is much harder to achieve with a degree from an "online" institution. It's good to see you asking the questions now rather than figuring out mid-course that you've invested in something that does not make you competitive for your preferred career path and becoming resentful.

I am in the dissertation phase of my program with Fielding Graduate University. My chair, David Rehorick, recently led an effort to revamp the research curriculum & program delivery model. This was definitely based on some clear evidence that students were reaching the proposal stage without the requisite knowledge and skills. More work needs to be done. Specifically, I think students need to be doing mini-projects much earlier in their studies, preparing applications for the IRB, and conducting research. It would be beneficial if they identified their post-doc career goals and were advised regarding the implications of those goals for their plan of study.

At Fielding, each student is obligated to formulate their own path, contracting one on one with professors to assess in a variety of knowledge areas. I've seen a wide variety in the quality of student work, for example, in the degree of sophistication of thinking theoretically, in being able to give a credible account of how knowledge has developed in a particular line of inquiry, and in differentiating accurately between how the choice of research question and associated method impacts what one can really expect to know as a result of a particular study. That is, some people are not able to articulate the constraints of question and method on their expected contribution to the scholarly body of knowledge.

But what I would say is that we certainly do have faculty at Fielding who are well versed in such things and that, if one seeks out a rigorous course of study, one can get it in that distributed environment. Fielding is not exactly an online program. Resources are housed online, such as library access. And students or faculty can organize collaborative learning that includes an online environment for discussion and posting. But for my work, much of it has involved establishing relationships with those academics and researchers who are actually in my field. They do not all reside in a single academic institution. So, for example, you don't get the Chicago slant on human development rather than the Cornell slant. You get access to a range of interdisciplinary scholars from among the faculty at Fielding ... and then you have to forge ahead to identify and form relationships with others in your field. I've done this at conferences, by contacting authors that stood out in my literature review, and by figuring out who is doing what work in my field of interest.

My son Matthew got a full ride to the PhD program at Cornell in human development, and to be honest I envy him his laboratory and academic colleagues. There is much to be said for an environment that is an incubator for thought, full of smart people. In my distributed world, it has been lonely at times. But much of PhD work is lonely, even for those in brick and mortar. I'm satisfied with my choice, and confident that I will produce a quality product that is relevant.

Finally, Judy Stevens-Long at Fielding's school of Human & Organizational Development (HOD) has conducted a number of outcome-based studies regarding the program. She will know where to get some data on whether and how well graduates have placed in academic posts. I know of many who are teaching and continuing to do research, so I know it is being done but can't speak to the actual numbers. http://www.fielding.edu/programs

Dear Colleagues,

Much of this discussion has been peppered with personal experiences of teachers, students, and evaluators. In that vein, let me recount one of mine.

In gathering data for a forthcoming meta-analysis, I read more that 100 dissertations, many from online universities including Capella. I paid particular attention to the theoretical, methodological, and statistical rigor of each dissertation. My conclusions were perfectly consistent with the advice I gave to Richard Cruz.

Since full text pdfs of dissertations are available online in searchable form, I would encourage anyone interested in assessing the differences between online and residential Ph.D. programs to pick an <st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> topic and compare the dissertations produced from both types of programs.

Bruce

Bruce M. Meglino

Professor and Ph.D. Coordinator in Management

The <st1:personname w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Moore</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename></st1:personname>
<st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype> of <st1:state w:st="on">South Carolina</st1:state> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Columbia</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">SC</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">29208</st1:postalcode></st1:place>

Voice: 803.777-5970; Fax: 803.777-6876
http://mooreschool.sc.edu/facultyandresearch/faculty.aspx?faculty_id=71

Hello everyone,

<st1:placename w:st="on">Capella</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype> offers a rigorous online doctoral program with varied options in the <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> and Technology or the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Public Service Leadership</st1:placename></st1:place>, depending on what kind of organization interests you. I respectfully disagree with Dr. Meglino. As a doctoral faculty member and mentor in the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename></st1:place> and Technology  I have very close relationships and ongoing close interactions with learners. Learners who have me as a mentor or committee member would tell you that their research designs, data collection and analysis are subjects of ongoing conversation and undergo careful scrutiny. Our research oversight, through IRB and approval processes, are anything but a slam dunk.

At Capella, doctoral residencies and Dissertation Writers' Retreats offer face-to-face opportunities. I also use online meeting and shared document  tools and phone conversations to communicate with my doctoral mentees who are working on dissertations. I convene online meetings with groups of mentees who discuss their research and share ideas. These learners may miss some informal interactions common in an on-ground program but they gain something else-extraordinary skills in online communication and collaboration, and 21^st century academic skills. They are prepared to research, work and/or teach in a global, digitally-connected world. Since our learners are adults they can draw on both practical and academic knowledge as scholar-practitioners. Having spent a chunk of my own academic life in an Ivy League setting, I think this mix abilities in critical and applied thinking is quite valuable. Given the complex and challenging problems of our time we need thoughtful researchers who can help us understand and solve them.

I would point out that the world of scholarship is changing. Just as e-learning has changed the way education happens even in traditional institutions e-research will change the way we think about scholarship. The ways people conduct research are changing and I'd argue that new ways to cultivate researchers are also needed.  Online programs offer new ways to think about the formation of scholars. I'm interested in exploring new ways to support and guide the learners who work with me on dissertations. (I've recently written a book called Online Interviews in Real Time, and am in progress on a book called Cases in Online Interview Research, both from Sage.)

I encourage Mr. Cruz to think about career plans and look at all of the options, including those offered online. Certainly in on-ground institutions some are more research-oriented than others-and the focus and programs will appeal to some learners and not others. I think it is beneficial to have more diverse options accessible to a wider range of potential scholars.

All the best,

Janet Salmons, PhD

Janet Salmons Ph.D.
Core Faculty, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Capella</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Business and Technology &

Founder/Principal Consultant, Vision2Lead, Inc.
Site- http://www.vision2lead.com

Now available!  Online Interviews in Real Time

Read: Uncommon Places for Research

Join the Qualitative E-Research Group and companion group in Second Life

Follow Twitter at /einterview
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:street w:st="on">PO Box</st1:street> 943</st1:address>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Boulder</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">CO</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">80306-0943</st1:postalcode></st1:place>
303-443-3075

Bruce,

You bring up a great point!

While online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment, you will not receive the same research support as a brick and mortar institution, unless you find it on your own.  I am with an online institution, and I have partnered with a nonprofit for my research.  I do not, however, have a cadre of faculty to work with within my school setting other than my Dissertation Committee.

I have, however, networked with several colleagues and researchers within my field.  They have been a tremendous resource for me.  But, in the end, the selection committee at any research based institution will not consider how much I have networked, but from which kind of institution I received my degree from.  The online route will not fare as well as a brick and mortar...the only way I can see around this stigma is by getting published in peer review journals.

For the record, the majority of research institutions who do have faculty with online PhDs on staff most likely hired them at the Masters level, and approved their online curriculum as a member of the staff.  Rarely (at least at this point in time) will most research institutions hire a graduate from an online university from the outside, unless the projects are based online.

Richard,

That depends on whether you career plans include working at a research-oriented institution. It's difficult to imagine an online Ph.D. program that would be reasonably effective in preparing its students to pursue research-oriented careers. In a traditional residential Ph.D. program, students probably learn more outside of their formal coursework (i.e., from close interactions with faculty and fellow students) than within. In my view, such experiences are almost impossible to duplicate in an online curriculum.

As you say, online programs are certainly gaining traction (i.e., students) in their undergraduate and graduate level offerings. However, I know of no research-oriented institutions that actively recruit graduates of online Ph.D. programs.

Bruce

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

Kurt,

You bring up a great point that needs to be highlighted here.  Many online programs (psychology specifically in this instance) will not provide certain residency requirements needed for licensing and certifications.  However, other online programs do provide this very requirement.  The student needs to be aware of what the degree has been designed to offer.  I am in an I/O Psychology program.  My degree will not lead to certification, nor should it.  I plan to continue to work in the business community while maintaining my adjunct status.  I am not looking to get certified to counsel clients.

Too many students enter programs with one paradigm of what a program should offer only to find out they should have entered another program, or attended another school.  Richard is doing the right thing by inquiring and taking in all of our comments so he can make a well informed decision.  I wish more students would do the same.

A Ph.D. (graduate) from an online program recently tried to register for the state licensing exam (as a psychologist) in Pennsylvania, but was denied (meaning that she could not by licensed in the state).
The reason was that she did not meet the state residency requirements for her degree. I suspect that barriers such as this and the marketplace itself will differentiate online and resident degrees in the coming years.
Kurt Kraiger
Colorado State University

Nancy,

You stated, "So perhaps an online program can give you the basic knowledge of the topic (e.g. organizational behavior), but it won't help you develop research skills, which are critical to a traditional academic degree."  This is a generalization that has no data to prove your assertion.  This is not intended to disparage your opinion.  However, so far, all of our statements have been opinions based on our individual experiences, or second hand knowledge from others' experiences. 

I agree with some of the comments in this thread that research needs to be conducted to validate or disprove the value of online education in academia.  In my opinion, the mode is not as important as the output.  I can show examples of students from Brick and Mortar (B&M) schools who earned their PhDs, but never attained an academic career because they were unable to establish that they knew how to conduct rigorous research.  However, the percentages (as of now) are much higher for online graduates.

I saw a call to establish a study.  This should include a combination of an online PhD graduates and a B&M PhD graduates.  Who in here would like to sponsor such a project? 

I am not interested in "proving or disproving" the validity of online PhDs, but to understand the academic rigor, sociability, quality of scholarship, current and future output, and functional career tracks (both academic and non academic).  B&M PhD programs have always been used as a baseline for successful online degrees, and this trend should continue.

I have to agree with David's point below. If you want a PhD for a tenure-track, research-based career, an online PhD a bad idea. I have a friend who'd always wanted a PhD, didn't really want to get out of her corporate HR leadership role, but just wanted the piece of paper. It's fine for her; it gave her what she wanted. However, it won't help her career one iota, and it won't help her get a good academic job.

She also asked me to participate in her dissertation, and I couldn't agree more with David on this. Her research skills were nonexistent, and I've seen sharp undergraduate students do the same level or better work in a class project. So perhaps an online program can give you the basic knowledge of the topic (e.g. organizational behavior), but it won't help you develop research skills, which are critical to a traditional academic degree.

It's also much more engaging and rewarding to be involved with other students and smart, capable faculty than being online – that's how your ideas and skills get tested and developed. If at all possible, my recommendation to anyone considering an online PhD would be to try to re-engineer things in your life to go for a more traditional approach to your education. It's a much better use of your time and money.

Good luck!  

Rodger

I concur regarding the slim chance of getting a research job with an online degree, though I'm curious about your basis for asserting that "online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment" to brick and mortar institutions.  Have you been in both? Has anyone on this list?

Would comparing the research records of the instructors in each be a suitable proxy for the relative rigor of these different formats of doctoral classes?

Of course aggregate results are generally more robust that anecdotes, though I remain eager to hear examples of any online graduates whose online PhDs have been deemed sufficiently rigorous, innovative and useful to be published in our premier outlets .

As incoming PDW chair of the Careers Division, I too would be interested in a session featuring solid evidence on issues including the realistic research career expectations and options that typically result from an online PhD.

Peter

Sent from iPhone

Bruce,

You bring up a great point!

While online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment, you will not receive the same research support as a brick and mortar institution, unless you find it on your own.  I am with an online institution, and I have partnered with a nonprofit for my research.  I do not, however, have a cadre of faculty to work with within my school setting other than my Dissertation Committee.

I have, however, networked with several colleagues and researchers within my field.  They have been a tremendous resource for me.  But, in the end, the selection committee at any research based institution will not consider how much I have networked, but from which kind of institution I received my degree from.  The online route will not fare as well as a brick and mortar...the only way I can see around this stigma is by getting published in peer review journals.

For the record, the majority of research institutions who do have faculty with online PhDs on staff most likely hired them at the Masters level, and approved their online curriculum as a member of the staff.  Rarely (at least at this point in time) will most research institutions hire a graduate from an online university from the outside, unless the projects are based online.

Richard,

That depends on whether you career plans include working at a research-oriented institution. It's difficult to imagine an online Ph.D. program that would be reasonably effective in preparing its students to pursue research-oriented careers. In a traditional residential Ph.D. program, students probably learn more outside of their formal coursework (i.e., from close interactions with faculty and fellow students) than within. In my view, such experiences are almost impossible to duplicate in an online curriculum.

As you say, online programs are certainly gaining traction (i.e., students) in their undergraduate and graduate level offerings. However, I know of no research-oriented institutions that actively recruit graduates of online Ph.D. programs.

Bruce

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

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Chris,

This is a very useful list. Thank you for posting it. You also need to mention that at least half of these schools do not even have a doctoral program while they have at least one professor who managed to publish in one of the top journals in Management field (not to mention coauthors from the same university).

In a doctoral seminar you are not supposed to discuss topics like MBA students do. For instance an org theory seminar is supposed to be way beyond that (I cannot imagine reading and discussing ASQ articles onlineJ) In fact, just like medical doctors using Latin in job related conversations, you have to speak with the appropriate jargon, theory, methodology, etc. That is why, you probably won't be asked to write certain minimum number of words. In order to properly understand and summarize a certain article so that you won't get humiliated in class (especially the first year), you may need to write pages and pages for hours and hours. Saying that, I wonder if the reading lists of online doctoral programs coincide with the reading lists of traditional programs. If that is the case then a conscientious student of an online program may be able to get a lot from it.  

We have to acknowledge one fact though; in the near future most schools will be providing classes online. 20-30 years from now, probably half of the doctoral granting institutions will be offering online programs. Today, even the top MBA programs of the country offer online courses. The trick is to meet the certain quality requirements like the ones of AACSB. To my knowledge, none of the online programs have AACSB accreditation at the time being (I am not saying they are not accredited, just talking about the AACSB accreditation) but who knows what may happen in the future? As the management professors who are preaching about innovation in the classes we teach, maybe we should warm up to the idea of online doctoral programs if certain quality requirements are metJ

Best,

There is really one primary thing that differentiates a PhD program from an MBA program: research. If you want to learn how to do research, go where people do it. Every professor will claim to do a lot of research, and every program will claim to have at least some research focus.
 
I think the best way to find out where people do good research is to check the data. Texas A&M (not a program I'm affiliated with) has posted very helpful information on this topic: http://mays.tamu.edu/mgmt/productivity-rankings/
 
I took that data and simply aggregated it into a 5 year total (see attached). Sort it any way you want. By total productivity, by a particular journal, search for an online program (if you can't find one, that probably means a zero in all of the columns), whatever. The data will be more informative than various anecdotes. You most likely already believe that, or you wouldn't be interested in a PhD in the first place.
 
If you think that research productivity is not accurately measured by the number of publications in top journals, then it may be more informative to consult citation counts instead. Podsakoff et al. (2008) have a useful article in the Journal of Management which provides this data. You'll find that it correlates strongly with the journal article count data, but it may still be useful to view.
 
I won't advocate an online or brick-and-mortar approach. I'll just recommend that you consult the data.
 
Chris Barnes
 

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:52:05 -0400
From: richard.cruz@GMAIL.COM
Subject: [OB-LIST] PhD program online
To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the <st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

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Nancy,

You stated, "So perhaps an online program can give you the basic knowledge of the topic (e.g. organizational behavior), but it won't help you develop research skills, which are critical to a traditional academic degree."  This is a generalization that has no data to prove your assertion.  This is not intended to disparage your opinion.  However, so far, all of our statements have been opinions based on our individual experiences, or second hand knowledge from others' experiences. 

I agree with some of the comments in this thread that research needs to be conducted to validate or disprove the value of online education in academia.  In my opinion, the mode is not as important as the output.  I can show examples of students from Brick and Mortar (B&M) schools who earned their PhDs, but never attained an academic career because they were unable to establish that they knew how to conduct rigorous research.  However, the percentages (as of now) are much higher for online graduates.

I saw a call to establish a study.  This should include a combination of an online PhD graduates and a B&M PhD graduates.  Who in here would like to sponsor such a project? 

I am not interested in "proving or disproving" the validity of online PhDs, but to understand the academic rigor, sociability, quality of scholarship, current and future output, and functional career tracks (both academic and non academic).  B&M PhD programs have always been used as a baseline for successful online degrees, and this trend should continue.

I have to agree with David's point below. If you want a PhD for a tenure-track, research-based career, an online PhD a bad idea. I have a friend who'd always wanted a PhD, didn't really want to get out of her corporate HR leadership role, but just wanted the piece of paper. It's fine for her; it gave her what she wanted. However, it won't help her career one iota, and it won't help her get a good academic job.

She also asked me to participate in her dissertation, and I couldn't agree more with David on this. Her research skills were nonexistent, and I've seen sharp undergraduate students do the same level or better work in a class project. So perhaps an online program can give you the basic knowledge of the topic (e.g. organizational behavior), but it won't help you develop research skills, which are critical to a traditional academic degree.

It's also much more engaging and rewarding to be involved with other students and smart, capable faculty than being online – that's how your ideas and skills get tested and developed. If at all possible, my recommendation to anyone considering an online PhD would be to try to re-engineer things in your life to go for a more traditional approach to your education. It's a much better use of your time and money.

Good luck!  

Peter,

To answer your question, "Have you been in both? Has anyone on this list?" Referring to online versus B&M classroom attendance.  I have gone to B&M classes, studied online, taken video based classes, by-mail based classes, and independent study programs.  I have gone to school in almost every available venue.  I can state from my personal experience that the online instruction is equivalent to sitting in a classroom.  There are differences for each, but the end learning is the same. 

As for opportunities to conduct research, this comes from the student themselves, not the mode of learning.  I am a life-long student, and will seek further education (in one fashion or another, including more B&M classes).  I am not seeking an academic post right now, so I am not attached to the B&M mode. 

I get the sense that many academics on this list feel threatened that the online community plans to take over academia.  You may have a few who pontificate about the superiority of new technologies, however, nothing beats a great conversation face to face with a brilliant professor.  The majority of us in online programs are not seeking to take over, but simply want to be regarded as colleagues. 

With that, I have a question...what is the real difference between an undergraduate student reading Anthem by Ayn Rand and writing a paper in an online environment, receiving the professor's feedback by email; and the B&M undergraduate student who reads the same book, writes a similar paper, and receives feedback via edit marks on the student's paper?  Most of us would say very little if any.  The B&M mode uses more face to face interaction, while the online mode requires much more writing to communicate.

However, in trying to apply this to graduate and PhD studies, we seem to get stuck on the mode as inadequate when the inequality is in the research support system of these schools, not the learning.  I have personally worked to move past this limitation by seeking research opportunities by reaching out to local organizations, as well as submit articles for publication.  I have published a couple pieces, one that has been referenced in others' works as of late.  I am hoping to establish a history of solid research publishing, and depend on this for any future academic endeavors I may seek.  But, as for now, I love to learn and I love to share what I have learned...regardless of the mode.

Rodger

I concur regarding the slim chance of getting a research job with an online degree, though I'm curious about your basis for asserting that "online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment" to brick and mortar institutions.  Have you been in both? Has anyone on this list?

Would comparing the research records of the instructors in each be a suitable proxy for the relative rigor of these different formats of doctoral classes?

Of course aggregate results are generally more robust that anecdotes, though I remain eager to hear examples of any online graduates whose online PhDs have been deemed sufficiently rigorous, innovative and useful to be published in our premier outlets .

As incoming PDW chair of the Careers Division, I too would be interested in a session featuring solid evidence on issues including the realistic research career expectations and options that typically result from an online PhD.

Peter

Sent from iPhone

Bruce,

You bring up a great point!

While online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment, you will not receive the same research support as a brick and mortar institution, unless you find it on your own.  I am with an online institution, and I have partnered with a nonprofit for my research.  I do not, however, have a cadre of faculty to work with within my school setting other than my Dissertation Committee.

I have, however, networked with several colleagues and researchers within my field.  They have been a tremendous resource for me.  But, in the end, the selection committee at any research based institution will not consider how much I have networked, but from which kind of institution I received my degree from.  The online route will not fare as well as a brick and mortar...the only way I can see around this stigma is by getting published in peer review journals.

For the record, the majority of research institutions who do have faculty with online PhDs on staff most likely hired them at the Masters level, and approved their online curriculum as a member of the staff.  Rarely (at least at this point in time) will most research institutions hire a graduate from an online university from the outside, unless the projects are based online.

Richard,

That depends on whether you career plans include working at a research-oriented institution. It's difficult to imagine an online Ph.D. program that would be reasonably effective in preparing its students to pursue research-oriented careers. In a traditional residential Ph.D. program, students probably learn more outside of their formal coursework (i.e., from close interactions with faculty and fellow students) than within. In my view, such experiences are almost impossible to duplicate in an online curriculum.

As you say, online programs are certainly gaining traction (i.e., students) in their undergraduate and graduate level offerings. However, I know of no research-oriented institutions that actively recruit graduates of online Ph.D. programs.

Bruce

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

This message is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system.

I have been trying to decide if this comment is too tangential to the ongoing discussion but decided to throw my card in the hat... (also I have not read every post in this long dialogue so I hope I am not repeating).

As a PhD student about to complete a rigorous full time PhD program, I completely agree that it would be very difficult to accomplish the same objectives / outcomes part time or online. However, as a practitioner that worked for nearly 10 years in managerial level positions in the corporate world, I am disappointed that so few academics that study management have actually worked and managed in corporate positions.

We frequently talk about the need to increase relevance in management academic work. I believe that there is a tremendous need for more brokerage or connections between academic and corporate worlds. It is possible that part-time / online PhDs and Executive PhDs (another related emerging trend) might play a role in bridging these domains. If more practicing corporate personnel became familiar with huge bank of existing knowledge as well as the rigor of management research we might have many more champions in corporate America who push for great university-industry collaboration.

Although this is quite a complicated issue (e.g., do online / executive PhDs diminish the legitimacy of PhDs in general), we should consider that these degrees may serve a different role but may still be very valuable to the field as a whole. If we continue to make it so difficult for practitioners to engage with management academia we certainly don't enhance the relevancy of our field.

Peter,

To answer your question, "Have you been in both? Has anyone on this list?" Referring to online versus B&M classroom attendance.  I have gone to B&M classes, studied online, taken video based classes, by-mail based classes, and independent study programs.  I have gone to school in almost every available venue.  I can state from my personal experience that the online instruction is equivalent to sitting in a classroom.  There are differences for each, but the end learning is the same. 

As for opportunities to conduct research, this comes from the student themselves, not the mode of learning.  I am a life-long student, and will seek further education (in one fashion or another, including more B&M classes).  I am not seeking an academic post right now, so I am not attached to the B&M mode. 

I get the sense that many academics on this list feel threatened that the online community plans to take over academia.  You may have a few who pontificate about the superiority of new technologies, however, nothing beats a great conversation face to face with a brilliant professor.  The majority of us in online programs are not seeking to take over, but simply want to be regarded as colleagues. 

With that, I have a question...what is the real difference between an undergraduate student reading Anthem by Ayn Rand and writing a paper in an online environment, receiving the professor's feedback by email; and the B&M undergraduate student who reads the same book, writes a similar paper, and receives feedback via edit marks on the student's paper?  Most of us would say very little if any.  The B&M mode uses more face to face interaction, while the online mode requires much more writing to communicate.

However, in trying to apply this to graduate and PhD studies, we seem to get stuck on the mode as inadequate when the inequality is in the research support system of these schools, not the learning.  I have personally worked to move past this limitation by seeking research opportunities by reaching out to local organizations, as well as submit articles for publication.  I have published a couple pieces, one that has been referenced in others' works as of late.  I am hoping to establish a history of solid research publishing, and depend on this for any future academic endeavors I may seek.  But, as for now, I love to learn and I love to share what I have learned...regardless of the mode.

Rodger

I concur regarding the slim chance of getting a research job with an online degree, though I'm curious about your basis for asserting that "online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment" to brick and mortar institutions.  Have you been in both? Has anyone on this list?

Would comparing the research records of the instructors in each be a suitable proxy for the relative rigor of these different formats of doctoral classes?

Of course aggregate results are generally more robust that anecdotes, though I remain eager to hear examples of any online graduates whose online PhDs have been deemed sufficiently rigorous, innovative and useful to be published in our premier outlets .

As incoming PDW chair of the Careers Division, I too would be interested in a session featuring solid evidence on issues including the realistic research career expectations and options that typically result from an online PhD.

Peter

Sent from iPhone

Bruce,

You bring up a great point!

While online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment, you will not receive the same research support as a brick and mortar institution, unless you find it on your own.  I am with an online institution, and I have partnered with a nonprofit for my research.  I do not, however, have a cadre of faculty to work with within my school setting other than my Dissertation Committee.

I have, however, networked with several colleagues and researchers within my field.  They have been a tremendous resource for me.  But, in the end, the selection committee at any research based institution will not consider how much I have networked, but from which kind of institution I received my degree from.  The online route will not fare as well as a brick and mortar...the only way I can see around this stigma is by getting published in peer review journals.

For the record, the majority of research institutions who do have faculty with online PhDs on staff most likely hired them at the Masters level, and approved their online curriculum as a member of the staff.  Rarely (at least at this point in time) will most research institutions hire a graduate from an online university from the outside, unless the projects are based online.

Richard,

That depends on whether you career plans include working at a research-oriented institution. It's difficult to imagine an online Ph.D. program that would be reasonably effective in preparing its students to pursue research-oriented careers. In a traditional residential Ph.D. program, students probably learn more outside of their formal coursework (i.e., from close interactions with faculty and fellow students) than within. In my view, such experiences are almost impossible to duplicate in an online curriculum.

As you say, online programs are certainly gaining traction (i.e., students) in their undergraduate and graduate level offerings. However, I know of no research-oriented institutions that actively recruit graduates of online Ph.D. programs.

Bruce

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

This message is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system.

This message is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system.

Rodger

I concur regarding the slim chance of getting a research job with an online degree, though I'm curious about your basis for asserting that "online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment" to brick and mortar institutions.  Have you been in both? Has anyone on this list?

Would comparing the research records of the instructors in each be a suitable proxy for the relative rigor of these different formats of doctoral classes?

Of course aggregate results are generally more robust that anecdotes, though I remain eager to hear examples of any online graduates whose online PhDs have been deemed sufficiently rigorous, innovative and useful to be published in our premier outlets .

As incoming PDW chair of the Careers Division, I too would be interested in a session featuring solid evidence on issues including the realistic research career expectations and options that typically result from an online PhD.

Peter

Sent from iPhone

Bruce,

You bring up a great point!

While online doctoral programs carry equivalent rigor in the classroom environment, you will not receive the same research support as a brick and mortar institution, unless you find it on your own.  I am with an online institution, and I have partnered with a nonprofit for my research.  I do not, however, have a cadre of faculty to work with within my school setting other than my Dissertation Committee.

I have, however, networked with several colleagues and researchers within my field.  They have been a tremendous resource for me.  But, in the end, the selection committee at any research based institution will not consider how much I have networked, but from which kind of institution I received my degree from.  The online route will not fare as well as a brick and mortar...the only way I can see around this stigma is by getting published in peer review journals.

For the record, the majority of research institutions who do have faculty with online PhDs on staff most likely hired them at the Masters level, and approved their online curriculum as a member of the staff.  Rarely (at least at this point in time) will most research institutions hire a graduate from an online university from the outside, unless the projects are based online.

Richard,

That depends on whether you career plans include working at a research-oriented institution. It's difficult to imagine an online Ph.D. program that would be reasonably effective in preparing its students to pursue research-oriented careers. In a traditional residential Ph.D. program, students probably learn more outside of their formal coursework (i.e., from close interactions with faculty and fellow students) than within. In my view, such experiences are almost impossible to duplicate in an online curriculum.

As you say, online programs are certainly gaining traction (i.e., students) in their undergraduate and graduate level offerings. However, I know of no research-oriented institutions that actively recruit graduates of online Ph.D. programs.

Bruce

As online programs gain more and more traction and become an option to pursue an advanced degree, are there some programs that have started to stand out above the rest?  I am seriously considering working on a PhD, but will likely have to take the online route to make this goal a reality.  Any suggestions in the OB field?

Thank you,
Richard Cruz

This message is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system.